â„–2675989[Quote]
Let me make this clear: do not make this mistake, JWs are not Christian. They are a heretical sect of Christianity, like Islam or Mormonism. They deny the basic foundations of Christianity that have been accepted since Justin Martyr and the Apostles. Even before that, Philo of Alexandria speaks of basically a proto-trinity. If you deny the Holy Trinity or the divinity of Jesus Christ, not only are you a heretic, but you aren't even Christian. Christians affirm the Trinity spoken of in Holy Scripture and by the church fathers and the Nicene Creed. The Trinity is the rock of Christainity it is the foundation of the Christian God. Without the Father that guides you to the Son and the Holy Spirit that works within you, you cannot have salvation. I'm going to start this rebuttal by using Scripture and Church Fathers to affirm the Trinity. Let's start in Genesis 1:2, this is the second verse of the Holy Bible, and it speaks of the Holy Spirit. Seperate from YHWH and existing before creation. Along with this, it is attributed to divine attributes. JWs claim that the Holy Spirit is a force, not a divine Person within the Godhead. This simply isn't Biblical. Can a force create life? Can a force exist before creation? Can a force have intelligence? No! And you're a fool if you think so! And it's not only Genesis 1:2 that speaks of the Holy Spirit, but multiple other verses such as Genesis 41:38, Exodus 31:3, Numbers 24:2, Judges 3:10, Psalm 104:30, 1 Samuel 10:6, Exodus 31:3, Isaiah 11:2, Micah 3:8, Nehemiah 9:30, Job 33:4, Isaiah 42:1, and many more. All these verses make it clear that the Spirit of YHWH, or the Holy Spirit, is divine and can do the work of YHWH; it isn't just a force but something inseparable from YHWH, existing before creation itself and being with YHWH since eternity. Even Jewish scholars affirm that the Spirit of YHWH can perform divine actions, they just reject that its seperate from YHWH the Father.
â„–2675991[Quote]
Now lets talk about the plurality of YHWH in Genesis. The verses I am using are Genesis 1:26, Genesis 3:22, and Genesis 11:7. JWs will claim He's speaking to angels, implying angels had anything to do with creation. Nehemiah 9:6 makes it very clear that YHWH alone created the heavens and the earth. Psalm 148:2-5 makes it very clear that He commanded, and they were created. Angels are creations, not creators. He is using plural pronouns because the Godhead is 3 persons within one divine essence. God knows Himself and has revealed Himself to us. Now I am going to prove the angel of YHWH is YHWH using scripture. The first verse I will use is Genesis 16:7-13, not only is the Angel of YHWH speaking in first person as God, but is worshipped as God. The second verse I will use is Exodus 3:2-6 aka the Burning Bush. This verse speaks for itself, so I'll be quick; it refers to the Angel of YHWH as God. This just isn't debatable. The third verse I'll use is Zechariah 3:1-2. This verse names the Angel of the Lord and then explicitly calls the Angel of the Lord' Lord' after He rebukes satan. Judges 6:11-24 is the fourth and final set of verses I'll use for my argument. Initially In Judges 6:11, it refers to the entity that appeared to Gideon as the Angel of the Lord. In Judges 6:12 the Angel of the Lord specially calls Himself Lord. The angel of the Lord then performs a divine miracle in Judges 6:20-22. Gideon then fears death because he has seen the Lord face to face, but the Lord reassures him by saying from heaven, "Peace be with you." Not only do these verses explicitly call the angel of YHWH Lord and God, but it shows that the angel of the Lord can perform miracles and can appear to people while still being God. Scripture makes it clear; no one can see the Father, only His begotten (not made) Son or the angel of YHWH (John 1:18, Exodus 33:20). The angel of YHWH is recognized as YHWH while at the same time being separate from YHWH. As you can see from the verses I cited, the spirit of YHWH and the angel of YHWH exist both as YHWH will at the same time being separate from YHWH.
â„–2675993[Quote]
Both these entities have divine attributes and are called YHWH. I use the OT instead of NT to argue for the Trinity because it shows that there has always been a Trinity. JWs being a seperate religion entirely have a seperate Bible; a false one. But even their false Bible cannot avoid the reality of the Trinity. YHWH has given us scripture to reveal Himself to His creation. He has not hidden Himself but made Himself very clear. I am now going to refute the idea that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. This argument is basically just a conspiracy theory and, in a sane and God-fearing world, wouldn't even exist. None of the Church Fathers ever implied this. NONE. JWs, like the muslims use the argument "well, the word 'Trinity' is never explicitly used in the Holy Bible." Using this logic Micheal cannot be Jesus because the Holy Bible never calls Michael Jesus or the Angel of YHWH Michael. Jesus is also seated at the Right Hand of the Father (Hebrews 1:13), and not only that, but the Bible literally says angels worship Jesus, the Son of the living God (Hebrews 1:6). Not only does Hebrews 1:6 say angels worship Jesus, it says ALL angels worship Jesus, not just some, but ALL. I will now give a list of verses that prove Jesus is God and then OT verses that say the Messiah will be God: Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:9, Matthew 28:17, Matthew 28:19, Mark 14:61-64, John 9:38, John 8:58, John 10:30, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 5:23, John 10:38, John 14:1, John 14:9, Romans 9:5, Hebrews 1:3, Hebrews 1:8, Titus 2:13, Colossians 2:9, Philippians 2:6, Revelation 5:13-14, Isaiah 9:6; Isaiah 10:21; Isaiah 35:4-6; Isaiah 40:3; Isaiah 52:7-10; Jeremiah 23:5-6; Jeremiah 33:16; Ezekiel 34:11-23; Psalm 45:6-7; Daniel 7:13-14; Micah 5:2; Zechariah 12:10; Malachi 3:1, Jeremiah 31:31-34 - Hebrews 8:8-12, Hosea 11:1 - Matthew 2:14-15, Daniel 7:13-14, Psalm 110:1 - Mark 14:61-64, 1 Corinthians 15:25. Psalm 22 - Matthew 27:46, John 19:24, Isaiah 53:3-5 - 1 Peter 2:22-24, Acts 8:32-35, Zechariah 12:10 - John 19:37, Malachi 3:1 - Mark 1:2-3, Luke 7:27, Zechariah 9:9 - Matthew 21:5, Micah 5:2 - Matthew 2:6, Isaiah 9:6 - Luke 2:11, Titus 2:13, Isaiah 6:1-3 - John 12:41, Isaiah 7:14 - Matthew 1:23, Psalm 110:1 - Matthew 22:44, Acts 2:34-35, Psalm 2:7 - Acts 13:33, Hebrews 1:5, Deuteronomy 18:15 - Acts 3:20-22, Genesis 12:3 - Acts 3:25-26, Genesis 3:15 - Galatians 4:4, Exodus 23:20-21 - 1 Corinthians 10:4, 9, Psalm 102:25-27 - Hebrews 1:10-12, Nehemiah 9:6 - John 1:3, Isaiah 43:11 - Luke 2:11, Isaiah 44:6 - Revelation 1:17-18, Isaiah 45:22-23 - Philippians 2:9-11, Joel 2:32 - Romans 10:9-13, Isaiah 40:3 - Matthew 3:3.
I am going to end this with a Trinitarian Hymn that dates back to the third-fourth century. May God bless you all.
"O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee"
â„–2675995[Quote]
guys my gemini ran out.. can someone sumarize dis?
â„–2676005[Quote]
>>2675995The Old Testament affirms that the Angel of YHWH and the Spirit of YHWH are YHWH, Jesus isn't Michael, JWs have no apostolic tradition, etc, etc.
â„–2676062[Quote]
I don't wanna be a namefag albeit here are archives for this thread and the other one I made for if you ever get into a debate with a JW or muslim
https://soyjak.st/pol/thread/2675989.html\
https://archive.ph/9rQaK