â„–3941605[Quote]
The baby never sinned he is going to heaven
â„–3941624[Quote]
>>3941605Not likely according to Catholic canon, haven't checked orthodox though
â„–3941626[Quote]
And the baby carries "original sin"
â„–3941628[Quote]
>>3941624i dont care the baby is going to heaven
â„–3941636[Quote]
>>3941628Not according to Mr jesus
â„–3941646[Quote]
>>3941636no its not according to organized human systems that say they saw what jesus wanted. whos to say that someone corrupted what jesus actually said?
â„–3941663[Quote]
>>3941646Yeah what jesus said is corrupted, hence why you shouldn't believe in the bible or nonsense such as babies going to hell in the first place.
â„–3941666[Quote]
>>3941663no i said that what the people saw what jesus said lied about it and corrupted it. what jesus actually said was divine and its obvious he doesnt send babies to hell
â„–3941680[Quote]
>>3941666Yeah people saw what jesus said and wrote it down and it got corrupted, what was written down was the bible. The bible is corrupt.
â„–3941681[Quote]
>>3941680no waht the people saw were corrupt and lied about jesus's word. again listen
â„–3941685[Quote]
>>3941605Sorry heretic if it doesn't get baptized then it goes to hell since some nudist dude ate a magical apple thrembillion years ago
â„–3941686[Quote]
>>3941624this is part of why catholics suck
â„–3941687[Quote]
The baby deserves it nigger. Also I thought you were underage and lived in Wales what happened? Did you finally get deported?
â„–3941690[Quote]
>>3941686at least orthobros try to preserve the church as closely as they can to what it originally was the catholics are just retarded polytheists
â„–3941693[Quote]
>>3941690even doe the trinity makes perfect sense. god merely takes up three forms but it is the same god
â„–3941694[Quote]
Also mind you in islam dead babies go to paradise since everyone is born a servant to allah
â„–3941695[Quote]
>>3941681?? We're both saying basically the same thing, you're just saying the disciples lied instead of the people after them which is a weird thing to say if you're Christian
â„–3941697[Quote]
bait
â„–3941700[Quote]
>>3941695A im a deist. B the people lying isnt jesus's fault it is humanity's fault C theist or not christianity has provided moral laws for humanity that have founded what we consider good and sober morality
â„–3941703[Quote]
>>3941697it is bait but i have to defend so no one else gets demoralized
â„–3941706[Quote]
>>3941693No.. The idea God simply takes three forms instead of there being three persons all being fully God is modalism
â„–3941709[Quote]
>>3941693oh no i agree with the trinity i just hate what catholics do when they go >well uhhh actually we're ASKING the saints to pray for us! we're not praying TO them!
as if that makes any difference whatsoever. no, you ARE praying TO the saints
â„–3941710[Quote]
>>3941697Not bait, simply christianity.
>>3941700I never said it's jesuses fault, I'm simply showing the flaws of Christianity and how it was corrupted hence should no longer be followed
â„–3941715[Quote]
>>3941710but that corruption can be applied to all systems and then what you have to do is view which one gives the most stablity. christianity has given us the most stablity then any other system in the past.
â„–3941717[Quote]
>>3941574 (OP)Really depends on the interpretation of hell were going with, in something like Dante's Inferno, unbaptized children are sent to Limbo, which is pretty much a knockoff heaven for anyone who was a good person but not a Christian, including unbaptized babies, many Christians also believe hell is different for each sinner, with the whole pits of fire thing being just catholic fear mongering
â„–3941719[Quote]
>>3941706you are mostly confused by the diction. it obviously means those three persons are all equally god/divine. they are not seperate from god or their own god
â„–3941725[Quote]
>>3941715That corruption can be applied to what has been corrupted. Not things that haven't been, like Islam.
>>3941717There's two views in catholic canon
A: babies that go to hell only experience mental pain of not being in heaven
B: babies that go to hell experience physical pain
>>3941719If i have X Y Z and X Y Z are all 100% Q then I have 3 Q's. If you replace X Y Z with father son spirit and Q with God then you'll end up with 3 gods.
â„–3941730[Quote]
>>3941717i believe hell is the physical world. hell is separation from God and God is in the divine world, not the physical world, so being in the physical world is the furthest from God you can get, so the physical word is hell, which makes sense considering that satan is the god of the physical world as is mentioned multiple times in the gospel of john
â„–3941733[Quote]
>>3941698Under Christian theology even an aborted baby can go to hell. Free will appears with ensoulment
â„–3941734[Quote]
>>3941725no its more like three Qs all in different launages. they mean the same thing but they look different. islam is corrupted as it tells you to look at the previous gospels to verify the quran ergo if the bible is a corrupted book then the quran is also corrupted. this is the islamic dillemia
â„–3941738[Quote]
>>3941733but its free will was taken by the will of another ergo it isnt its fault for dying its other people ergo it cant go for hell as it wouldnt be punished for its own actions/corruption ergo unbaptized babies dont go to hell
â„–3941741[Quote]
>>3941725How would an undeveloped mind experience mental pain retarded turkroach? Only a non christian, adult man, would feel that kind of pain.
>>3941730Just say you're a gnostic fag
â„–3941744[Quote]
>>3941734islam is corrupted because allah is satan, THE satan.
â„–3941745[Quote]
>>3941741no he is baiting and doesnt give a shit im here to defend from demoralization
â„–3941747[Quote]
>>3941744im working through his own book and logic to debunk him and its working
â„–3941755[Quote]
>>3941734The Q's are things, if I have 3 Q's, 3 things, then I have three things. If I have 3 things, and these 3 things are all 100% that thing, then i have 3 things that are 100% of that thing. Now if that thing is God, I would have 3 God's.
And no, the Quran doesn't say "look at the bible to verify the quran" as a blanket statement, it states "If you are in doubt o prophet ask THOSE WHO WHERE READING THE SCRIPTURE before you" this means we don't appeal to the bible/torah itself but those who have studied it, ofcourse we won't ask a christian/jew who rejects Islam, as Allah says their interpretations of the Scripture are Akin to pre Islamic ignorance, instead we would ask revert jews/Christians, such as one a revert jew named Abdullah Ibn salam referred to in the Qur'an.
â„–3941757[Quote]
>>3941738>unbaptized babies dont go to hellSo where's the cutoff for baptisation
â„–3941758[Quote]
>>3941747satan is just as if not more evil in the koran as he is when he impersonates God in the old testament
â„–3941762[Quote]
>>3941741>How would an undeveloped mind experience mental pain Right cause it would be impossible for God to give them a developed mind in hell to experience that pain, also don't know why you're mad at me, that's Catholic theology you've just cursed, if you have a problem take it to them. Not me.
â„–3941769[Quote]
the baby was jewish so it passed the sins onto a pigeon 1 second before death so actually a bird is going to burn in hell for no reason
â„–3941771[Quote]
>>3941738Also it's pointless to argue this anyway because free will doesn't exist, especially not under Christianity
â„–3941772[Quote]
>>3941755you appeal to the people who study it ergo you appeal to the logic in the bible as articulated through these scholars and if you think that the logic in the bible is flawed/corrupted then you are using scholars/logic that is corrupted to justify the quran ergo the quran is corrupted as its using a corrupted book to justify itself geg
â„–3941774[Quote]
>>3941762And you assume God would do that because….?
â„–3941775[Quote]
>>3941744Unless you're atheist which then it wouldn't make sense to believe in Satan, this is absoloutely false. The bible says Satan cannot cast out Satan for a house divided by itself cannot stand, and the Qur'an explicitly curses Shaitan, ibliis, dajjal, etc, ergo Allah, the one who revealed the quran, cannot be Satan.
â„–3941778[Quote]
>>3941771free will does exist as god gives us it. knowledge of our choices and actions doesnt take away our freewill. fate and knowledge are two different things
â„–3941779[Quote]
>>3941774I wouldnt assume it, but catholics would because they believe babies can go to hell.
â„–3941781[Quote]
>>3941755its not hard to understand. god is one detity he takes the form of three person at the same time. he can do this as god is inherently beyond human logic ergo god can be one thing and three persons this is simple to understand as he is beyond us
â„–3941787[Quote]
>>3941775>the Qur'an explicitly curses Shaitan, ibliis, dajjal, etc, ergo Allahdo you not think that him pretending to be yet another """all-loving""" god who hates himself is a part of his plan?
â„–3941789[Quote]
>>3941778Well God knows everything that happens, on our human scale we have the illusion of free will but God perfectly knows and understands every aspect of the domino effect he put into place, so it's pointless because he knows the complete outcome. If you think that people have free will you might as well say that a lightning bolt God sends down also has that same free will.
â„–3941791[Quote]
>>3941757>cutoff for baptisationi mean the cutoff is when you die after you are smart enough to commit to actions with intention and purpose in mind this can vary but god will know and its obviously not children/babies
â„–3941797[Quote]
>>3941789yes god knows everything. he knows our actions. but thats the thing they are OUR actions. we dont have to pick them. if i had to guess god sees all the actions we can/will pick but he knows which one we will do.
â„–3941798[Quote]
>>3941781i believe in the mainstream trinity but whenever people get confused about the trinity i just tell them that God is kinda like an eldritch being in the sense that He is so outside of being able to be fully comprehended by humans that trying to comprehend him is impossible
â„–3941800[Quote]
>>3941798obviously thats why i think its dumb to try to appeal insane human based standards/logic to god. and plus the moral and social progress belief in god has given us that even if i was a atheist i would say christianity has been a net positive
â„–3941804[Quote]
>>3941797If I chop a tree I can imagine a scenario where it floats into the air but obviously I know it will fall down, the tree doesn't have free will. We are just that on a more complicated level, but God is transcendent of that and we are just as predictable as that falling tree.
â„–3941806[Quote]
>>3941803posted a random image with no contest GG
â„–3941811[Quote]
>>3941787Yeah you cant say that he's pretending or he's doing so and so, in the end he's commanding Muslims to hate Satan, and the bible explicitly says Satan cannot say to hate Satan.
â„–3941813[Quote]
>>3941804predictable doesnt take away from our actions. it doesnt take away from our choices and its ok if you disagree with that i think that regardless of any logical issues you have with god the net benefits outweigh it
â„–3941815[Quote]
>>3941806Read it, if you don't understand something I'll explain
â„–3941818[Quote]
>>3941815its not hard to understand that a god beyond understanding a start or end can be three persons while being one god.
â„–3941826[Quote]
>>3941803also you guys do the same stuff with the 'fallacy' by saying allah is beyond understandning also. also a fallacy doesnt take away from my points either
â„–3941836[Quote]
>>3941818Saying "it's beyond human comprehension" as an excuse to something that clearly and absoloutely defies classical logic and the axioms of counting isn't an argument but a fallacy, being special pleading. What you could class as a case would be saying "the way God is able to know everything is beyond human comprehension" as we do not know how God is able to know everything as scripture states, only that he DOES know everything.
â„–3941843[Quote]
>>3941813If God loves all of us, why would he he, with the explicit knowledge of their futures, create sinners who would surely 100% go to hell?
â„–3941851[Quote]
>>3941836>trying to apply human and classical logic to a being beyond bothdo you see how this doesnt work. you cant apply our logic to god. he can even subvert his own nature as he can do anything. to you and me it seems illogical but it makes perfect sense when you consider this. also not arguing my other argument about the islamic dilemmia
â„–3941857[Quote]
>>3941851I think you're doing the exact same thing you're arguing against, applying human logic about free will to God
â„–3941859[Quote]
>>3941826Me saying "Allah is beyond understanding" isn't a fallacy. What would be a fallacy is if Allah did soemthing clearly illogical, such as if Allah said was able to exist and not exist at the same time, that would be utterly illogical and not something that can be excused via "it's beyond human understanding" as an excuse to say he can do it but we just don't know how, as it is absoloutely impossible as it directly contradicts logic itself, not that we don't know how that logic works. A door cannot be open and closed at the same time, it has to be one or the other, this is the law of excluded middle. If you disagree with this then you're essentially saying you believe in an illogical God, which is blasphemy in any religion.
â„–3941860[Quote]
>>3941843you see where this is going right. i will say its free will that does that and humans choose to be evil. you will say but god sees everything and creates everything. this is too large a disconnect and out of respect we should just agree to disagree. plus i wasnt here to convince you guys im here to fight against the demoralization and give a third option then X or Y
â„–3941871[Quote]
>>3941859you realize the point that
>>3941843 is making can also be applied to you. if allah is all knowing then we cant have free will either and he is a evil god also ergo allah also is illogical in nature
â„–3941873[Quote]
>>3941859god is beyond human logic that is what i am saying he is not illogical or logical as he is beyond being bound by anything.
â„–3941875[Quote]
>>3941871Muslims don't believe Allah is all loving
â„–3941877[Quote]
>>3941875weird how you ignored that first point geg. also admitting your god is evil is a weird flex but ok geg
â„–3941881[Quote]
>>3941873The problem is this isn't human logic, we are arguing objective feature of reality. For you to deny things such as the law of excluded middle is basically you saying you don't believe reality exists the way it does which is utterly illogical. For you to say God just doesn't abide by any logical rules or by objective logic of reality, you whether you like it or not are conceding God is illogical.
â„–3941883[Quote]
>>3941860I think I argued with you in a thread a few months ago also about babies and the afterlife, or maybe it was someone else
â„–3941886[Quote]
>>3941877Is Allah evil for not loving evil rapist genocidal pedophile murderer who eats babies and kills pregnant women and burns cats alive?
And yes we still can have free will idk why you think we wouldn't. If you flipped a coin and I happened to know the outcome that doesn't mean you didn't have the free will to flip the coin or the free will to see the outcome
â„–3941888[Quote]
>>3941881im denying the binary your providing me of illogical or logic. god by his nature is beyond both. a being that created you and me and all of us and everything is beyond true understanding we cannot know his nature and thats a fact. their is no obejective rule to god we only know what he tells us and provides us. and by this we know he is a merciful graceful GOOD god not a bad one like you admit allah is geg
â„–3941893[Quote]
>>3941888If God said 1=2 is he illogical or not
â„–3941894[Quote]
>>3941886ye but your god and a tree you chop down could fly into the sky but it doesnt and you know the outcome just like god knows the outcome of all people's choices and lives. its predictable of the tree to fall down and its predictable of god to know what we will do. so again this argument doesnt work and still lives the free will question.
â„–3941900[Quote]
>>3941893again trying to make god work in human logical standards is ironically illogical
â„–3941903[Quote]
>>3941900Okay is god not illogical for saying 1=2
â„–3941908[Quote]
>>3941903again not gonna answer bad faith questions designed for ego wins. when you answer what i said about the islamic dilemma is when i will answer this
â„–3941915[Quote]
>>3941903and no he is no illogical as he wouldnt be working on this paradigm
â„–3941917[Quote]
>>3941894Don't know what you're trying to say here
â„–3941920[Quote]
>>3941917if you chopped down a tree and you know the tree will fall but it could fly into the air but you know it wont that removes the chance or free will of that tree. just like allah knowing what we will do at all times and our choices also removes our free will. ergo you still have to fight the free will question
â„–3941925[Quote]
>>3941920ergo allah is illogical even without the islamic dilemmia you continue to ignore